Curse

Arkantos · Dec 13, 2007, 04:57 AM // 04:57

Unless both your monks are bad at e-management, then them using a condition remover on you isn't going to drastically affect them. Personally I'd rather be killing shit while my monks worry about my conditions then stopping for about a second to remove 2 conditions which are most likely going to be applied on me shortly after.

Mainly it's bad because you're worrying about something that your monks should be worrying about. Unless you're in a blind/weakness heavy area, it's mostly useless.

blue.rellik · Dec 13, 2007, 05:05 AM // 05:05

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Originally Posted by Arkantos

Unless both your monks are bad at e-management, then them using a condition remover on you isn't going to drastically affect them. Personally I'd rather be killing shit while my monks worry about my conditions then stopping for about a second to remove 2 conditions which are most likely going to be applied on me shortly after.

Well a hero Monk spamming RC on recharge (which they do) will drain their energy quick. I pack my monks with GOLE and I bring Hayda/Morghan with motivational shouts that give energy back and even then they drain energy. Also there's the fact that they sometimes don't remove the blind off you (too busy prot spriting someone else which they do) leaving you useless. I hardly see how 1 skill bought to a area filled with blind will hurt

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Mainly it's bad because you're worrying about something that your monks should be worrying about. Unless you're in a blind/weakness heavy area, it's mostly useless.

Well duh. I'm not bringing it to fight a hex heavy area.

Arkantos · Dec 13, 2007, 05:13 AM // 05:13

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Well a hero Monk spamming RC on recharge (which they do) will drain their energy quick. I pack my monks with GOLE and I bring Hayda/Morghan with motivational shouts that give energy back and even then they drain energy.

My RC monk never runs out of energy unless the battle drags on for a long time, which usually doesn't happen in PvE.

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Also there's the fact that they sometimes don't remove the blind off you (too busy prot spriting someone else which they do) leaving you useless.

Which is why you can macro your heroes. Most monk skills are 1/4-1s cast, so macroing won't be a problem.

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I hardly see how 1 skill bought to a area filled with blind will hurt

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Originally Posted by Arkantos

Mainly it's bad because you're worrying about something that your monks should be worrying about. Unless you're in a blind/weakness heavy area, it's mostly useless.

Umm, ok?

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Well duh. I'm not bringing it to fight a hex heavy area.

All you said was it's a good skill. You never specified what kind of area, so you're most likely talking about general PvE. In general PvE, it's useless. In areas full of blind/weakness, it's not.

blue.rellik · Dec 13, 2007, 05:23 AM // 05:23

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Originally Posted by Arkantos

My RC monk never runs out of energy unless the battle drags on for a long time, which usually doesn't happen in PvE.

Well it can happen in HM. Or even the Mandragor in EotN, they're very condition happy

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Which is why you can macro your heroes. Most monk skills are 1/4-1s cast, so macroing won't be a problem.

Micro

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Umm, ok?

Did I say to bring it all the time?

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All you said was it's a good skill. You never specified what kind of area, so you're most likely talking about general PvE. In general PvE, it's useless. In areas full of blind/weakness, it's not.

I did?

Arkantos · Dec 13, 2007, 05:28 AM // 05:28

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Originally Posted by blue.rellik

Well it can happen in HM. Or even the Mandragor in EotN, they're very condition happy

Micro

Did I say to bring it all the time?

I did?

Even in HM, I fail to see how you bringing mending touch is going to help anything. If you can manage to hold aggro, your backline will be taking less conditions/damage meaning your monks can focus more on you and your conditions.

Mistakes happen.

No you didn't, but you said something I already said which seems kind of pointless.

I said it was bad and you're defending it while saying you (would) use it, which means you think it's good. I used the wrong word.

blue.rellik · Dec 13, 2007, 05:38 AM // 05:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

Even in HM, I fail to see how you bringing mending touch is going to help anything. If you can manage to hold aggro, your backline will be taking less conditions/damage meaning your monks can focus more on you and your conditions.

Oh because it's all easy like that in HM. So in a condition/hex heavy area, you will just leave everything to the AI?

As you said, mistakes happen. What if those mandragor get past you (especially in this day and age of aoe-scatter) and onto the back lines?

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No you didn't, but you said something I already said which seems kind of pointless.

I was using your arguement on why I believe you're wrong.

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I said it was bad and you're defending it while saying you (would) use it, which means you think it's good. I used the wrong word.

What kind of logic is that?

Let me state my contention. I am arguing with you because you said it's bad. I am arguing that it is useful (not good, USEFUL) in the situation where conditions are running rampant. Do I advocate bringing it into places that have little to no conditions? No. Do I advocate to bring it to places that can ease the pressure off the monks, places where the monks might be more busy protting a squishie? Yes.

Age · Dec 13, 2007, 05:40 AM // 05:40

I use it mending touch or others as I am not not not a tank and I don't hold aggro as I am often tab-spacebar ,tab-spacebar so I can get 5 things killed in less than 10 sec.What about those who don't have heros and only Prophecies and Factions there no condition remover on hench Monks we all know this.When they do it in PvP so do I.

I look at the build on the other page tommorow.

Arkantos · Dec 13, 2007, 05:46 AM // 05:46

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Originally Posted by blue.rellik

Oh because it's all easy like that in HM. So in a condition/hex heavy area, you will just leave everything to the AI?

As you said, mistakes happen. What if those mandragor get past you (especially in this day and age of aoe-scatter) and onto the back lines?

I was using your arguement on why I believe you're wrong.

What kind of logic is that?

Let me state my contention. I am arguing with you because you said it's bad. I am arguing that it is useful (not good, USEFUL) in the situation where conditions are running rampant. Do I advocate bringing it into places that have little to no conditions? No. Do I advocate to bring it to places that can ease the pressure off the monks, places where the monks might be more busy protting a squishie? Yes.

Well yeah, if you're good at playing warrior then holding aggro with AI isn't that hard. If some get passed you it's not the end of the world. The only mandragor that can blind you is the ranger, and throw dirt has a 30s recharge so theres no problem with your monk to remove it for you. When I said mistakes happen, I was talking about the macro/micro thing.

My argument was it's not that great in an area that doesn't have alot of blind/weakness and you said it won't hurt in an area with blind. How exactly are you using my argument against me?

Such a big difference between good and useful, right? By good I mean it's good in a situation where it would be useful. Again, your squishies won't need prot if you can manage to hold aggro, and even if you lose some enemies a single caster shouldn't be taking so much damage that both your monks have to stop everything and prot that target to the max. They'll need to use 1-3 skills unless for some reason every enemy is attacking that caster. 1-3 spells between 2 monks isn't so much that they won't have time to remove a condition from you. H/H are dumb, but they aren't retarded.

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I use it mending touch or others as I am not not not a tank and I don't hold aggro as I am often tab-spacebar ,tab-spacebar so I can get 5 things killed in less than 10 sec.What about those who don't have heros and only Prophecies and Factions there no condition remover on hench Monks we all know this.When they do it in PvP so do I.

Holding aggro != tanking. When you hold aggro, you pull and let your enemies target you while you and your casters kill them. Tanking is when you load up a bunch of bad defensive skills, pull and sit there doing nothing but spamming your defensive skills. I also find it hard to believe that you can manage to kill an enemy every 2 seconds.

The discussion here is based on the players having all the campaigns. If the player only has P/F then yes, it's not horrible, but that's not the case. If the OP said he only had P/F there would be a totally different discussion, but that's not the case.

blue.rellik · Dec 13, 2007, 05:55 AM // 05:55

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Originally Posted by Arkantos

Well yeah, if you're good at playing warrior then holding aggro with AI isn't that hard. If some get passed you it's not the end of the world. The only mandragor that can blind you is the ranger, and throw dirt has a 30s recharge so theres no problem with your monk to remove it for you. When I said mistakes happen, I was talking about the macro/micro thing.

Blind isn't the only condition mandragor have. They inflict pretty much every condition around on the whole party. Anyway I don't know about you but in HM, monsters don't like to focus purely on the warrior.

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My argument was it's not that great in an area that doesn't have alot of blind/weakness and you said it won't hurt in an area with blind. How exactly are you using my argument against me?

You said it was pretty bad. If it was pretty bad then why ever use it?

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Such a big difference between good and useful, right? By good I mean it's good in a situation where it would be useful. Again, your squishies won't need prot if you can manage to hold aggro, and even if you lose some enemies a single caster shouldn't be taking so much damage that both your monks have to stop everything and prot that target to the max.
They'll need to use 1-3 skills unless for some reason every enemy is attacking that caster. 1-3 spells between 2 monks isn't so much that they won't have time to remove a condition from you. H/H are dumb, but they aren't retarded.

I don't know what AI or game you are playing but I play Guild Wars. In this game the AI uses Prot spirit to counter degen and use vigorous spirit on themselves. If you are playing with real people then you're arguement is right but you're not. H/H are retarded, they throw every heal onto anyone who's red bar is going down. There's a reason why ZB is completely stupid on a hero and it's not because it looks funny on them.

Now if your Ogden/Dunk/Tahkl are leet enough to use their skills as good as the player or you're so awesome at the game you can micro your heroes as well as yourself with no trouble then I apologies. Most people don't have those skills.

Arkantos · Dec 13, 2007, 06:00 AM // 06:00

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Originally Posted by blue.rellik

Blind isn't the only condition mandragor have. They inflict pretty much every condition around on the whole party. Anyway I don't know about you but in HM, monsters don't like to focus purely on the warrior.

You said it was pretty bad. If it was pretty bad then why ever use it?

I don't know what AI or game you are playing but I play Guild Wars. In this game the AI uses Prot spirit to counter degen and use vigorous spirit on themselves. If you are playing with real people then you're arguement is right but you're not. H/H are retarded, they throw every heal onto anyone who's red bar is going down. There's a reason why ZB is completely stupid on a hero and it's not because it looks funny on them.

Now if your Ogden/Dunk/Tahkl are leet enough to use their skills as good as the player or you're so awesome at the game you can micro your heroes as well as yourself with no trouble then I apologies. Most people don't have those skills.

The other conditions aren't going to majorly effect you unless you have fragility on you, which your monk should remove.

I said it was pretty bad in general and I said it was useful in blind/weakness heavy areas.

I play Guild Wars too. All I do is play H/H. The only time I ever play with others is for elite areas and sometimes HM. H/H are obviously not as retarded as you think, seeing as many people play H/H and succeed while when they try with others fail.

Again, you're making the AI sound super retarded. Of course it's not perfect, hell it's not even great, but it's definitely not retarded. Microing a monk hero while playing warrior isn't hard, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to do it. I'm not awesome at the game, I just know how to play it.

blue.rellik · Dec 13, 2007, 06:08 AM // 06:08

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Originally Posted by Arkantos

The other conditions aren't going to majorly effect you unless you have fragility on you, which your monk should remove.

With Bleeding, Poison, Deep Wound possibly Burning and whatnot on the whole party. Maybe

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I said it was pretty bad in general and I said it was useful in blind/weakness heavy areas.

But that's the whole point, of course you don't use it for areas that aren't a threat. You would only bring it when conditions are rampant and in that role it works fine. It's role is to remove conditions and it does its job well enough.

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All I do is play H/H. The only time I ever play with others is for elite areas and HM. H/H are obviously not as retarded as you think, seeing as many people play H/H and succeed while when they try with others fail.

I'm not crying nor complaining about them, I only play H/H as well. I haven't done anything with other people in a long time but seriously, have you ever been hit with some degen and the monks put prot spirit on you even though you're near max life? Has anything similar to that happen before? Because it has happened plenty of time to me.

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Again, you're making the AI sound super retarded. Of course it's not perfect, hell it's not even great, but it's definitely not retarded.

Except it is stupid. Prot spiriting a guy with degen is something quite special.

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Microing a monk hero while playing warrior isn't hard, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to do it. I'm not awesome at the game, I just know how to play it.

That's the difference between you and me. I never take monk heroes now unless it's for the mission since Mhenlo and whoever is good for pretty much everywhere. I bring necros or paragons and thus I don't have Restore Condition on my lap. I prefer damage.

You understand now? Without Restore Condition, I have to rely on Dismiss Condition occasionally, which will hardly stop condition spamming. I bring Mending Touch to counter this. You can enjoy your RC monk and never worry about conditions but not everyone brings hero monks and thus you can't talk purely from your perspective.

Syntonic · Dec 13, 2007, 06:10 AM // 06:10

Remember to unlock W/D as well. The only dervish skill you really want probably is rending touch which is great in some areas. For example, areas with assassins and critical defenses may be a good area to use it.

Arkantos · Dec 13, 2007, 06:19 AM // 06:19

The whole thing is I was trying to say in general it's bad, but in some situations it's good. Lets end the argument on that.

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Remember to unlock W/D as well. The only dervish skill you really want probably is rending touch which is great in some areas. For example, areas with assassins and critical defenses may be a good area to use it.

Yeah, rending touch is a good skill against targets with annoying enchantments. Just gotta be careful on when you use it.

Draginvry · Dec 13, 2007, 07:56 AM // 07:56

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Originally Posted by blue.rellik

have you ever been hit with some degen and the monks put prot spirit on you even though you're near max life?

1. Some skills the heros use really well, better than their human counterparts.
2. Some skills the heros are ok at, but not as good as their human counterparts.
3. Some skills the heros suck at.
4. Some skills the heros won't use at all unless you control them manually.

My obvious question is why you are running skills on a hero that will only suck their energy dry, when you could easily replace them with skills from catergory 1.

bungusmaximus · Dec 13, 2007, 08:52 AM // 08:52

attack skill 1-3
FGJ
Watch Yourself
IAS
Run skill
Res

Make me wonder wether warriors need a secondary at all, I never use a secondary on PvE warriors,
exceptions are blind heavy areas, because it's usually spammed like mad (throw dirt in tahnakai,
b-flash/surge spam). And usually I tend to bring antidote signet instead of mtouch because it's free.

blue.rellik · Dec 13, 2007, 09:04 AM // 09:04

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Originally Posted by Draginvry

1. Some skills the heros use really well, better than their human counterparts.
2. Some skills the heros are ok at, but not as good as their human counterparts.
3. Some skills the heros suck at.
4. Some skills the heros won't use at all unless you control them manually.

My obvious question is why you are running skills on a hero that will only suck their energy dry, when you could easily replace them with skills from catergory 1.

Ok. I will never bring Prot Sprit and instead bring 3 heroes all with 8 Interuppts or Jagged Bones

My question to you, why did you not read what I said?

hurdlebeast · Dec 13, 2007, 08:09 PM // 20:09

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Originally Posted by bungusmaximus

attack skill 1-3
FGJ
Watch Yourself
IAS
Run skill
Res

Make me wonder wether warriors need a secondary at all, I never use a secondary on PvE warriors,
exceptions are blind heavy areas, because it's usually spammed like mad (throw dirt in tahnakai,
b-flash/surge spam). And usually I tend to bring antidote signet instead of mtouch because it's free.

ditto. unless you are going for a specific build, or going into a specific area (as noted, blind heavy for instance) most of the time you can use a warrior-only skill bar and be ok. just be sure to bring some good healers

Age · Dec 13, 2007, 11:29 PM // 23:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

The other conditions aren't going to majorly effect you unless you have fragility on you, which your monk should remove.

I said it was pretty bad in general and I said it was useful in blind/weakness heavy areas.

I play Guild Wars too. All I do is play H/H. The only time I ever play with others is for elite areas and sometimes HM. H/H are obviously not as retarded as you think, seeing as many people play H/H and succeed while when they try with others fail.

Again, you're making the AI sound super retarded. Of course it's not perfect, hell it's not even great, but it's definitely not retarded. Microing a monk hero while playing warrior isn't hard, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to do it. I'm not awesome at the game, I just know how to play it.

When it comes to heros I still trust a half axx pug Monk over them as when someone resses Tahlk uses Protective Spirit to heal them up as she constantly uses PoS.you are partyl responsible for controling your heros bar and movements.It is darn hard in the thick of the battle to control them.I don't think all players in GW have heros unless they have NF or EoTN.This one reason I woulduse mending touch or any condition remover.

Warriors don't have hardly any snares so graspingearth make for a goodskill om your bar to slow them down.Secondary skill do offer good chioces for Warriors and btw when they use mending touch in pvp best to use it in pve.That is for the most case I don't use pve skills unless quest/mission requires it.Do you use a res at all as well or not.

Crom The Pale · Dec 16, 2007, 03:52 AM // 03:52

There are a few locations in PvE where a war should concider bringing some self condition removal. When the monk is looking at a dazed nuker and a blind war id rather the war take care of himself and leave the monk to deal with the casters.

You should also keep in mind that in areas where foes use disease or AoE burning the Hench/Hero monks will often drain themselves needlessly.

Yukito Kunisaki · Dec 17, 2007, 07:38 PM // 19:38

I'm going to need some proof that a W/N that cracks defenses is bad... I don't see how a pure warrior will be 'better' than one who can BUST DOWN walls of defense...

Wild Blow Busts stances true... Let's see it break through enchantments that raise armor or auto block. What? Your Necromancer is using an enchant remover? That's odd, I thought they can do better by bringing ya know, skills that do damage! Since you can't hurt your foe who's hiding behind armor buff enchant or block enchant, rend is a natural...

Curses have skills that activate on physical hit. Someone is gonna have to try REALLY HARD justifying that a caster should bring Barbs instead of a warrior. Ever seen how a 10 Curses Barbed Kunnavang gets injured by 2 warriors with Vamp Bows, 2 rangers, and 10 lvl-16 DM Bone Fiends? That's a LOT of 10s popping up in a matter of 3 seconds...

For the record, if you're gonna go more than 9 str or 9 tactics in your warrior, that's gonna be hard to justify.

16 weapon, 9 str/tactics for shield, 10 curses. That's plenty. The damage boost you get from str or the duration boosts from tactics shouts aren't worth going 13 str/tactics, no way...

Mark of Pain? Yeah, due to the new AoE retreat AI, it does suck, but your very smart water elementalist or Earth Shaker Warrior is nearby for that I'd hope.

Cracked Armor helps warriors, sadly, there ARE NO CONDITIONS for warrior weapons to cause cracked armor. Well of Ruin = AoE armor breaking... Is that bad? Someone show me something better...